I've seen over the weekend a little racing, because I had to sleep finally. NASCAR is completely missing me, but for Formula One, it has nevertheless served. I should perhaps make it, because I'm actually more annoyed, even though the race itself so not so bad. Lots of fights, interesting strategies and exciting moments until the end. But then there was this scene at the start and the penalty for Lewis Hamilton, I can not understand. Something is running in Formula One is a tough wrong and now I'm open to any conspiracy theory.
First, one must realize already that Hamiton always brings himself into trouble. His desperate overtaking maneuver at Magny Cours, as he wanted to pass Vettel in an impossible position. The thing in Spa and now the launch in Japan. It would have been easier vorzulassen Raikkonen to arrange themselves in second or third place, and let's see how the race develops Sun Alonso would have done it, Schumacher and Hakkinen would have reacted. Instead, he slows to a point where it's not really, and gives a slight mess.
But why nothing has happened. He has not touched, he has even lost its secure place in the top 3 and in the following graph, directly or made a mistake. That was not wise and the foolish action had actually been punishment enough. That made him Massa was then turned over, then penalty number two, because he would not take part ... etc. Why did the stewards then aground a drive through penalty - it is beyond me. If he or someone else cleared Raikkonen - ok. But so? If you want to distribute punishments belongs to intuition. Hamilton had no benefits for his action, he has defended his position that he has not shot anyone. Because you should be able to say - that was punishment enough, especially the shooting by Massa. Let's leave it at that.
I understand these decisions are increasingly no longer and I can not understand though McLaren supporters, the reactions of the team. What's next? Only overtake at a safe distance? Electronic measuring, if you brake too late and then punishment? This is so ridiculous that because I have no words. The team leaders and the FIA are currently discussing how to make the show better, and then you come with punishments, which nobody understands.
This one has been penalized Massa, right, on the other side, with Bourdais but since I'm not sure again. Where should the go? Or was expected to rise fully to the iron, because Massa emerges? It was a battle position, no lapping maneuvers and Berger had told his driver probably what else, if he would have acted differently. Massa could have just as easily take another bow. He would come no later than one lap later by Bourdais and had less time lost. But such an accident happened just, happens every weekend, but recently, every slightest touch of any penalty assigned.
Which driver is there desire to risk an overtaking maneuver at something, when he first needs to consider that such an idea may end with a penalty. Because you would rather wait for the pit stop. As you can redesign the cars still 100 times, so that drivers can overtake easily, so does not matter.
The race - amazing what Renault withdraws as straight. The victory in Singapore was pure luck, even in Japan has benefited from the anger between McLaren and Ferrari, but is nevertheless striking that the French have gained considerable speed. Kubica could endanger Alonso never Raikkonen came with his tires can not cope, the rest did not take place. You can see that even with the fastest race laps, Alonso and Piquet for there is in the top 5 are again. This is not a coincidence and something Renault has found in the summer. Two wins in a row should keep Alonso at the French. Would be surprised if that would go now to Honda.
BMW is obviously now in a nice position. It is the hunter, even if I do not think Kubica has a serious chance. But if Massa and Hamilton continued to come into enclosure, things look different. 12 points in two races to make up for relaxed. Hamilton is very error-prone under pressure at Ferrari, you never know what happened to the box or if the technology lives. In the end, it could create Kubica because of the stupidity of others still. This applies also and especially for the constructors' title, the Bavarians were certainly very happy.
Five points are still there, the Hamilton leads. The World Cup is open to the atmosphere should be after the race in Japan heated up massively, everything that speaks for a very exciting race in China. Maybe it creates a race since time to bring about the stage, that is not torn apart by penalties.
(Pictures coming tomorrow)
No related posts.
"If he had cleared Raikkonen or someone else - ok. But that? "
(!) Well, Raikkonen had not completely left his line and the distance would be exactly what happens then Hamilton would be fully pure murmur within him. That this was prevented, was only the presence of mind of due Raikkonen, whose chances of winning this, however, were dashed. In this respect I find a penalty for unnecessary maneuvers Hamilton morally justified. He can not drive in two fights as if there would be no match. This mode of operation, the Hamiltonian does not show for the first time, you can not let go forever. You either need to keep the commissioners there, or it will do the drivers - but it can sometimes really crack.
Because: Had Raikkonen not yielded much (he was not obliged to do), then Hamilton would have rammed him, both would have been out of the race and Massa would have caught up more points. In addition, Hamilton would certainly be on the starting grid in China, 10 seats were added to the rear. Overall, it would have stood much worse, so he should be grateful Raikkonen and angry rather than his own mistakes.
Overall I am disappointed with the quality of the driver's field, one always sees errors. The punishments which sometimes follow (have), you can not blame the commissioners. A Schumacher and Alonso had a Top Cars of this season's play.
Evening (or morning ;))
I think the penalty against HAM 100% correctly and admit Kill or right. I am absolutely sure that the stewards wanted to set an example.
I'm impartial, but you just have to say, as Hamilton goes - it does not work. The action against Glock, I personally found very controversial and worthy of more than a stop and go.
The thing is still simple: Ham wanted to get the curve but not at all. No, because he drives like a madman in, as if the whole of F1 revolves around him.
What's funny too, as "cocky" are Ferrari and Mercedes. Many have spoken about the action of Webber. WTF? Where was the problem? Webber is to a certain (!) Point over pulled to the right. Haug and Lauder, he thought Massa had pushed, but that's bullshit. Once Massa has set in between, which is probably even did not expect Webber, Webber is batting more to the left.
If Massa wanted to take that risk. Ok, it should. But Ferrari and Mercedes will come down from the following trip: "We have only ienen opponents and the rest of us must make room!"
Oh, and n / C to the action of Ham after the race. If 90% had voted in the last fresh seasonal creations Ham on Alonso, I've lost almost all sympathy for these fresh seasonal creations Ham ... I'd like him once in a Force India to see ...
I am disappointed by the Formula 1 2008. The only positive is the victory of Vettel in Monza.
The maneuver by Hamilton in Turn1 I will not at all times and evaluate what has happened then the curve later, I have somehow not seen on television, you?
But what the boy out takes, is for me the crown. If he offended after the race the car just does not make the pack. First is to achieve what this **** and I do not like Formula 1 World Championship this year. Where the happier just the "big winner" will be.
The main thing Ron Dennis he has 20 years of money put in the butt and he had to make the racing in Formula 1 does not learn like everyone else. Raikkonen and Massa were formerly at Sauber, Schumacher started in Jordan and even Alonso started at Minardi. Of course, Michael Schumacher had a good man with Weber in the background. But anyway, HAM will make ma so on. Meanwhile, he loses even his sympathy-points at all - thank God.
Then there is a Kimi Raikkonen after his World Cup is responsible only for fast laps. Probably a couple of times zutief looked into the glass. He can not actually more. And Felipe Massa the championship at Silverstone has with most movers already won anyway.
Finally, the FIA always blessed us with some weird sentences. Whether it's yesterday for Hamilton, which for me so far is not transparent or against Bourdais, the first one is of course after the race - it was still 15 laps to go.
And then Singapore. Does the 10 laps race organizers felt to sort the field and then it feels like 60 laps around the crystal clear penalties zuverhängen. Oh what a fucking dirt is withdrawn as at present.
Either that or change I got up early for the longest time Formula 1
Why the anger?
You do not have to get up at 5 clock in order to watch the race, at 9:00 clock on the repetition has given me absolutely premiere. If you are then rested, then you are annoyed not so much ;-).
(Ok, I then got angry and between 9 and 11, but had slept at least)
Whether the maneuver by Hamilton in the first corner was OK or not, everyone likes to decide for themselves.
But: there is but one race be run! This also means that once someone decides wrong, and makes a mistake while braking mistake. If nothing happens then, in addition, what must become involved then this ominous Come Isare the time? That gets in the DTM to the pointer, where each maneuver is occupied with passing sentences.
The remaining sentences have been needlessly in my opinion. Can you post as a racing incident and let the matter rest for themselves.
The drive-through penalties were originally invented times to keep the viewers for the race course clear. There used to halt (if indeed at all) after the race, the penalties, which also is not better.
The race should come Isare is best to keep it going so far out of the race. Most of the penalties that were issued this year during the race were totally unnecessary.
Another thing to actual field of drivers:
The many mistakes of the floor at the top pilots surprised me this year too. Hamilton drove in my opinion better last year and has made fewer mistakes. Was it perhaps because he had less pressure, because everything has initially fell to Alonso?
Raikkonen Raikkonen is holding ;-) ... and after winning the title, you often had the feeling that he is not running at 100%. Well and Massa has never managed to drive consistently over an entire season, so he makes of this year, more than in his previous F1 career. If you then still thinks that Ferrari has stolen his 10 points in Singapore ... ;-)
But ultimately, the course makes the season a little more exciting, there is no high-flying pilots :-).
What a bullshit I @ / Realyn.
This is the same idiotic arguments like the "would-as-a-wall-confessed" thesis from Spa. Hamilton braked late, blocking the wheels and has slipped too far. That was how she herself says no intention but at least one mistake. Probably even more tactically extremely unwise, because he does like her and Don says correctly placed in a situation that was far more dangerous than if it had been sorted into 2 or 3.
As a racer you not to address you by your opponents. You do not need to point A because of the slow moving behind the so you want to. You must not drive on the inside because your opponent would like to go outside.
What you must not interfere with your colleagues on purpose (block, multiple lane changes, slowing down in qualifying, ...) or reckless endangering. Hamilton has done since neither the one nor the other, he braked too late, fell by the wayside. That Raikkonen had to dodge behind him is his bad luck, the other went to the outdoor track and just as happens every time. Just because you come from behind does not mean that all of you to let you through. Or you leave a gap.
The justification of the punishment was that Hamilton has pushed a car off the track. I could at least understand the approach, if one could assume intent. As a consequence, it would also schwachfug, because you would have to be punished as either a block or a threat. If neither the one nor the other is the case, then why punish?
It's even funnier when you think back to Spa. As Raikkonen at the chicane has also forced another car off the track. Yes, even as it was in danger of a collision and your (I / Realyn) arguments would apply there as well as here.
The thing I find with Bourdais also very questionable. Like Don said, where Bourdais will go there. The only alternative was that he would voluntarily pass Massa ahead of the curve and there we are passing in front of the duty of the man behind the man in position battles. The race is technically very large Dummfug. Bourdais is still inside and Massa is not intentionally drove into the car so what demand there stewards of it?
Massa would have had to tactically also recognize that it turns a few / one lap later had much less dangerous to overtake. Instead, he goes into the corner as if it were the last corner in the final race against Hamilton. That was unwise.
@ Me: Where are your moral justification for the herholst Hamilton's penalty you had to explain to me again.
Raikkonen is not in an isolated bubble entered the Hamilton's. Each driver is subjected in the first turn to the risk that his favorite line is already occupied by another car. This has little to do with presence of mind, as Raikkonen has only made the only right (to himself) and is dodged. Unlike Massa against Bourdais.
Hamilton is not responsible for Raikkonen's chance of winning depend on many variables and drivers.
What I think of the penalties, I've already posted in the chat yesterday, so here are just some to question whether he was not punished enough, and thus no more drive-through penalty must be imposed.
Here the punishment meets precisely not only the role of an obstacle to a good race result makes it more difficult to achieve, but also an indication for the sinner and everyone else in the field, that the action of curve 1 - a rash late braking and keeping clean, in the hope that provide all other care and prevent worse consequences - is wrong and will not be tolerated.
And just this warning effect is so important that IMHO would be followed absolutely even with a loss to Hamilton's action in Turn 1, a penalty, for example, by the disciplinary transfer by 5 seats at the next Grand Prix. (Just like Massa, if he had broken during driving the car)
Perhaps more fundamentally, one must realize after this season, Lewis Hamilton seems hardly ripe, neither of the last season, still a race to the next. Why did he make such a mistake? Why does he repeat it for? Where is it in the learning process? That he is with actions such as kindergarten yesterday after the race, as others have mentioned correctly, no friends, makes clear. Actually, you can only hope that he sometimes reads Norbert Haug with the same vehemence, the Levites, with whom he allrennwöchentlich the audience with his "facts" bombed.
Me, it would much prefer that someone from his environment Lewis Hamilton would take more time to one side as he brings on himself and his opponent in danger, perhaps to really someone ends up in hospital.
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@ Xenic
In premiere it was after the race, the starting phase of the helicopter view, where you could see that Hamilton after the action at turn 1 again fought back into the field, only to then also the braking point for curve 3 (sorry, I did yesterday all the time tells stories of curve 4), the next left, which then leads into the long right-hander to miss a long way to explain with the asphalt surface in front and back massage to be classified. If I can still remember factual and correct, it has this error even cost more than the stupid and dangerous action in the first curve
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Were there any of the Bourdais-Massa situation even more images in the wake? The one perspective that was seen yesterday in the race showed IMHO that is nothing, neither guilt nor innocence, which justify the punishment would actually still 'meet what.
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After Fernando Alonso showed me for my negative comments two weeks ago really sleep, it's time for an apology. I had missed the success in a unterlegenem car, and I was too hasty. The race yesterday was perfect and the class of a double world champion absolutely worthy!
Has tip to Renault, who made the last two months, a giant step forward and become even minimally IMHO are BMW!
I think some people would prefer that to blow the field sorted by the start as after Qualiergebnis.Die fastest ahead and start everything runs sich.Ein ALWAYS carries the risk that the punishment schiefgeht.Wurde Bourdais at Spa, when he at the start Trulli in front of the herschob La Source? Hamilton and braking mistake, because his braking point was just 5m later and will be punished. As measured by the commissioners with a double standard that most riders are punished for something, unless they drive a silver car ^ ^ the action with Massa was a clean outbraking, but Massa is bumped over the grass / Curb back. That was a clear penalty goes into Ordnung.Ich also do not know what has hired Bourdais, that the officials do not like him, but so does one good race for him kaputt.Unverständlich also, that came after the puncture of Sutil not SC, the Parts were so completely scattered across the web and later traveled there many durch.Sicherheitsdenken ³ at the FIA ^ ^ The main thing, the grooves are nice grün.Lohnt is indeed still in two races to go, kommen.Kann where next year's slick tires you do not fast ne ^ ^ campaign
Why the thesis should be crazy, you have time to explain in more detail.
Hamilton's "Here I Come" - were driving other top drivers in recent years, not (or very rarely) necessary for him now is almost every overtaking maneuver is similar. Correct overtaking but it looks different. Otherwise, I can only repeat myself: Raikkonen was not obliged to avoid so far. Had it then crashed, Hamilton would have been punished in any case, as responsible. Are we agreed? Dangerous driving was so already. Not for the first time
What should be in doubt at the penalty for Bourdais, I can not even recognize. Although the setting was on TV once more unsuitable, but coming out of the box, he should not come so amusing. That the Commissioners look particularly critical when it comes to World Cup candidates, perhaps not in compliance, but understandable. Massa's penalty was justified anyway, even if I ask him to no purpose.
I commend you once a slow motion of the HAM Startphase.KLar was late, but KOV was just running late and prevented the RAI its merge HAM konnte.Warum again he was not punished? He was closer to crashing with RAI than any theories of HAM HAM war.Und all irritated, the braking point is known about each ^ ^ again to Bourdais: There was no Überrundung.Warum Bourdais Massa will be over? Just have to watch both, but Massa had a better idea than Bourdais.Der even looked over, and where Bourdais is something you have to cut it trotzdem.Für normally penalize Massa, but something to be considered for Bourdais is lächerlich.Fair absolutely no penalty would be been, but apparently not get updated very often race without boredom or penalties. And yes, I've taken the race, and yes, I do not look something like only yesterday ^ ^ Formula 1 goes Crazy over the next two races, for sure ^ ^
Wolli wrote:
What should have been out to get the SC? Because rubber shreds on the road? Who do not yet what. Luckily we have not yet at the F1 NASCAR proportions in Charlotte Friday night because you have a piece of tape given a caution ...
The punishment: I can understand all to some extent, but I would not have been the punishment itself. These were all racing situations, things can happen to anyone and both Massa and Hamilton have been so punished for their own actions because they have lost time and places.
But what I really go on the biscuit, is - as so many have already said - Hamilton's "Make way, here I come!" Driving style. When he performs, he is absolutely sovereign. But what goes wrong, the fuse to burn him with runes. In Bahrain he has marred the start and only leaves Alonso on it back and show later Fisichella in a normal overtaking maneuver the fist, in Monza, he cuts in the rain, the Glock, which is not forbidden, but failed simply for reasons of respect and fairness should, in Fuji he holds at the start after the loss of space in, as if he were alone on the track ... and there was certainly in the course of two years or more situations, I can not think grad. It seems to be character-forming but, rumzugurken first, some years at Minardi and Co. in the back field.
I wrote:
Simply because there is a reality and must be evaluated. The actual situation and would not lead to what results the behavior in another situation.
Time, a situation from the legal philosophy on this: I'm going home with me and go into the 30 mph zone with 70 earlier by a traffic light phase to get to the main road. Then I drive to my destination, to be thrust into a highly beparkten road suddenly a man in front of me by a third person on the street and I anfahre these people. Without that I could respond, I'm with appropriate speed.
I'm partly to blame because I went into the 30 zone too quickly? Finally, I would otherwise not have been at the time in the street and would not have the people to approach.
I liked Hamilton, because he has witnessed strong overtaking in GP2 and was able to drive through the back of the box. Which is why I do not like him is that he constantly makes mistakes (he has finally conceded to some rather uncontroversial legal penalties) and does so incredibly nervous. As unspectacular and mau I think Massa, how calm he is driven to the first corner from me compels respect. (Its onboard from the start: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSH-fyG9Nfs )
Nevertheless, it is not prohibited Hamilton to move his car on the track. Its braking maneuver was late, but that is now in the first turn (and overtaking) really normal. Coulthardt has this season, I think twice before overtaking one in the sand (or enemy) is set, because he braked too late. Since then, it would also be a penalty every time and it is not right.
I may find myself in Massa's crash in Hamilton to discuss whether you really must punish. However, the FIA and the stewards brought into a situation where you had to punish him necessarily.
Not so with Bourdais. Whether he comes out of the box or not you want to accuse him that he has not stopped ahead of the curve passing wave to massage? He has left his place, he is completely inside run (not even on the racing line!) And Massa holds and cuts it in anyway. Sorry, but this is Massa's fault and if someone is punished because Massa. Bourdais was cautious, he has remained completely inside, he has not braking mistake, he has not kept clean, yet full pipe it comes to the crash. How can you punish this?
I think that it is not the example from road traffic can be compared with the incident at Spa. The "have-as-a-wall-standing" argument is certainly not the real justification for punishment. It will only show in addition that Hamilton's conduct was not necessarily just or alternative: Had there been a wall, and he would therefore have to conform to the rules keep his car on the track, he had just been at entrance to the chicane down or otherwise have the latest to brake hard at the chicane must. The thesis proves the fact that he just gave an advantage.
The incident with Bourdais I've seen, that he went a little too motivated in the curve. As you said, he was all inside, already off the asphalt - perhaps it is because something slipped outside, otherwise it was a little too much speed that carried him outside. If there are photographs that show the opposite, I would like to see. Am of course willing to correct my view. The shot was unfortunately really miserable.
appropos
As for Hamilton's boorish style of driving, some commentators are certainly right. He risked too much is too hectic and you make mistakes under pressure. Interestingly, he has been in the F3 and GP2 made. It's amazing that he did not learn from his mistakes. And because he has to really make something, because that's not my opinion that too. Nevertheless, I maintain that his maneuvers in Japan was clean. That it has other disabled - depending now. This is not the game of marbles, but in F1. In virtually every race on any weekend someone tried what risky. Alonso hat seinen Gegner schon so oft in der ersten Kurve die Tür zugeknallt, dass man sich auch gefragt hat, wann einer mal kommt, und es sich nicht mehr gefallen lässt.
Normalerweise regeln die Fahrer so etwas untereinander. Vielleicht verbremst sich ja mal Glock, sollte er überrundet werden, oder ein anderer (und es gibt wahrlich genug Fahrer, die offenbar einen dicken Hals auf den Briten haben) fährt ihm mal über den Frontflügel.
Mir gehen die Eingriffe der Komissare auf die Nerven, weil die Entscheidungen in der F1 auch den Maßstab für Entscheidungen in anderen Serien setzen. Erster Opfer war die eh schon halbtot geregelte WTCC, als man in Monza das halbe Feld bestrafte, weil irgendjemand abgekürzt hatte. Oder in der DTM, wo man dazu neigt, eine völlig neue, berührungsfreie Form des Tourenwagensport einzuführen. Wenn ich sehe, was dagegen in der NASCAR passiert, oder in der BTCC etc.
Ich will nicht, dass man sich in der F1 in die Kiste fährt, aber wenn man Hamilton für “gefährliches Fahren” bestraft, dann hätte man auch Webber bestrafen müssen, als er Massa in die Boxenausfahrt gedrängt hat.
Ich sag ja, demnächst bekommen alle Fahrzeuge so einen Abstandhalter wie Fahrradschüler rechts und links dran geschraubt.
NoteMe schrieb:
Habs mir jetzt drei mal angeschaut auf meiner Aufnahme, mit dem schönen Haug gesabbel dabei ;). Er startet, verbremst sich. Kommt zurück und muss KUB & ALO passieren lassen. Dann fährt HAM auf P3 – ziemlich alleine und dann verbremst er sich vor der links Kurve. Muss weit gehen und kommt zurück auf die Strecke. MAS und PIQ haben gut aufgepasst und irgendwas abgedrängt hat der Kerl da im Leben nicht und das sage ich als Scuderia-Fan.
Warum kommt man hier eigentlich immer wieder mit der Spa-These bezüglich Kiesbett / Mauer? Hätte Hätte Fahrradkette. Und warum kommt man hier nun eigentlich mit der “RAI hätte in Spa wegen abdrängen bestraft werden müssen” kacke auf? Also hätte HAM ja eine zweite Strafe gestern bekommen müssen. Hat immerhin MAS abgedrängt ;).
@Stefan: Wenn ich es nicht LIVE schaue, weiß ich das ich an PC gehe und mir bereits das Resultat anschaue ;-).
Nachtrag zur Hamilton Strafe. Auf der offiziellen Webseite der F1 ist ein unkommentierter Zusammenschnitt der drei Zwischenfälle aufgetaucht, die zu den Strafen geführt haben. Massa/Hamilton und Massa/Bourdais sind klar, aber in Sachen Hamilton beim Start sieht die Sache nach Ansicht der Bilder etwas anders aus.
Zum einen sieht man, dass Hamilton sehr spät bremst, weil er aus dem Windschatten von Räikkönen mit Überschuss ankommt. Zum anderen sieht man aber auch, dass der Finne selber auf der letzten Rille bremst, und dass es vor allem Kovalainen ist, der den Ferrari rausdrängt. Meine Meinung: wenn man denn schon jemanden bestrafen will, dann beide McLaren Piloten. Ich bleibe aber dabei: das war ein völlig normaler Vorfall, bei dem man keine Strafe hätte geben müssen. Ansonsten hätte man im letzten Jahr auch Alonso ähnlich behandeln müssen, als er in Spa Hamilton rausgedrängt hat.
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2008/10/8530.html
Danke für den Link, Don!
re: Bourdais-Massa-Kollision
Scheint so, als hätte er in der Kurve Übersteuern bekommen, sei es durch zu hohe Geschwindigkeit (IMHO eher weniger wahrscheinlich), oder durch das Überfahren des inneren Randsteins (IMHO wahrscheinlicher). Jedenfalls sieht man ihn schon vor dem Kontakt kurz gegenlenken und aus Massas Spiegelkamera ist er nach dem Kontakt geschätzte 2-3m vom Scheitelpunkt Richtung Fahrbahnmitte bzw. Massas Linie gedriftet.
Für mich geht die Bourdais-Massa-Situationas nach diesen Bildern zwar auf einen Fehler Bourdais' zurück, ist aber auch ein normaler Rennvorfall, der IMHO keine Strafe nach sich ziehen sollte.